Straw Man

How many here have studied Logic?

There is a "logic fallacy" called the Fallacy of Extension - or a "Straw Man" argument.

Far too many times I've seen the straw man of "you can't deport 12 million (or 38 or 20 or whatever) illegals".

Bullschidt.

They didn't all GET HERE in one big gaggle across the border - we would have noticed - so it's the height of insanity to think that we'll be SHIPPING 'EM BACK OUT in one big-assed bunch!

Bear that in mind the next time you hear that non-argument.  It is an attempt (and a rather clumsy one) by the other person to exaggerate the situation to minimize any rebuttal.

They came IN by ones and two's and dozens....as we tag 'em, we'll bag 'em and send 'em back wherever they came from.

This problem has been building for years, do not for one second think we can solve it in a year or two or three.

We can deport.  FDR did it without the advanced technology of today.  The fact is - the cost of deporting would be significantly less than the cost of healthcare, schooling, social security etc. 

 They just won't.  The Straw man also says we need to bring them  out of the shadows, they do the jobs Americans won't, they only come here to feed their children.... I say we arm them and send them home to fight their government.

While I'm at it, I've noticed from reading some of these threads that there is a particular penchant for many here to use the "Special Pleading" logic fallacy - sometimes called "stacking the deck".

I've seen that it is most often used with scare tactics (another logic fallacy) to bolster a particular position.

Two that stink the worst of illogic are the following:

1.  Now there's supposed to be some magical new "estimate" that there's suddenly 38 million illegal aliens instead of the 12 million most people believe are here (also somewhat mystical in its origins).

THINK for just a moment - how the hell did some "expert" ARRIVE at ANY of those numbers?

Then, the next logical question is:  If they could get anything near any ACCURACY with those numbers, then they should ALSO be able to LOCATE those illegals.

...and all off that parsing and haggling DOESN'T MATTER ONE DAMNED BIT!

Consider:  no matter how many there are, they are breaking the law, and thus should be located and deported.

Period.

Getting wrapped around the axle on numbers is just a smoke screen by the open borders crowd to obscure and delay the REAL objective - ENFORCING THE LAW.

2.  That 40,000 terrorists thing is quite simply absurd on its face.

THINK about it:  IF the government people got that many "hits" which have been intercepted - and one must ask whether or not they're inflating the body count by including 6 month-old babies who happen to be named "Osama" - then what does that mean?

It means that - by whatever means - the system has at least been making an ATTEMPT to keep things more secure.

The article I saw also asked "what if only 1% made it through?"

Duh.

Fact Time:  We will NEVER be 100% secure against terrorists.

...ask Timothy McVeigh.

As for terrorists "sneaking across the border"?

Another "Duh".

On a clear Tuesday morning in September of 2001, 19 dickheads with pocketknives and deathwishes proved the fallacy of that.

NONE of those 19 slogged across the desert to skip the border. 

They rode here on air-conditioned airliners.

To secure the borders, enforce the laws INSIDE those borders, and keep more dickheads with pocketknives from killing Americans, we need clear, cold-blooded logic....not hysteria and hyperbole.

02cav91,

Appreciate your thoughts. I have been upset with the arguments, "they do work Americans won't do", "the economy will collapse if they leave", "It's a complex issue and will take a long time to resolve" and last "We can't remove ALLo f them".

I will show you how corny and old-fashioned I am. YES WE CAN. This is America, there is nothing we cannot do!!!

Build the fence, fine or shut down the employers, impeach all Federal judges, shut down ACLU as a subversive operation (Communist), and last ==bail out Amtrak--over 2-3 years buy 12 million tickets to the border.. and give each of them a free ride.

God bless America!!!!

Most of them DO come here to feed their children - which was the point of NAFTA...to improve their lot in their OWN nation so they wouldn't come HERE.

Major problem with that is the raging corruption of the governments where they came from.

As for them "doing the jobs Americans won't do" - that's bull.

Americans WILL do those jobs, but not for half the minimum wage that illegals will happily take.

Ready to pay twice or three times as much for produce at the store?  Because prices WILL go up.

That's PART of what it will take to stem the flow...some sacrifice at the grocery store.  Anyone who isn't willing to pay more isn't serious about solving the illegal alien problem....and hasn't figured out the benefits - like lower health care costs when illegals no longer skip out on their hospital/emergency room bills, lower insurance rates, lower crime rates, more room in prisons for American criminals (so they're not on our streets), more tax revenues to the government from the suddenly NOT black-market workers paying taxes, higher wages from NOT being undercut by low-wage illegals, more profits to companies because more people will have more money to spend....

There has to be a four-pronged approach:

1.  Secure the borders to slow the influx - it won't stop 'em all (ask the East Germans how effective THEIR border security was) - but it will slow them.

A fence will act like an "Obstacle" in military tactics.  Concertina wire, anti-tank ditches, dragon's teeth, minefields - NONE of those will STOP an enemy...they're not really SUPPOSED TO!

What they do is either slow the advance - so you can pick 'em off in the open - or else "canalize" their advance...meaning, when they take the "unobstructed" route, you'll know RIGHT where they're going to be.

And that's where you have the Border Patrol concentrated....with lots of zip-cuffs and paddy wagons.

2.  Slap companies who employ illegals with crippling fines - say, $10,000 per illegal, first offense...then add a "0" to the fine's amount for each subsequent violation.  Have them send in each job applicant's SSN, and if the name don't match the number, no hire...and the cops investigate.

If a highway patrolman can run your name throught the NCIC in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, the same can be done in broad daylight in Anytown, USA.

3.  Visas.  Make it mandatory that EVERY alien who enters this country checks in with the local police EVERY month.  If the visa is expired, the alien leaves on the next plane.

Of the 19 punks of 9/11, MOST of them were here on expired visas.

4.  No more "sanctuary" cities.  They don't enforce the law, they get ZERO Federal money.  Period.

Of the "Ft. Dix Six", only two of 'em skipped over the border, and they'd been caught by the cops MULTIPLE times - but not deported.  The murdered kids in New Jersey are dead only because Newark is a "sanctuary" city, and the killer had been arrested on molestation charges but NOT deported.

Cold-blooded logic.

misterbill, you got a link to any evidence of that meeting?

The media lies so much, I've grown more than a mite skeptical of unsubstanciated claims.

If you want, I can post back-up for the statements I've made, but I haven't seen anything on that meeting.

02cav91==

Could not fiind it this AM. It was based on a september 23, 2007 article in Newsmax. I read vdare, newsmax, CIS, Grassfire, world net daily. It was a follow on to the PAN meeting in LA. There was a blurb in one of the above--after the meeting that Mex soldiers were in attendance. I apologize, I usually can find my sources. I do not make  important (or unimportant) information up. The situation is too critical for me to act as if I am a professional Main Stream Media  journalist (or liar, if you prefer).

O2Cav91 posts: "... Americans WILL do those jobs, but not for half the minimum wage that illegals will happily take."

Truth is, there may be Americans who would take some of those jobs for half the minimum wage, but the cannot.  Laws are enforced against the law abiding citizens, but eyes are turned as illegaal aleins break the law.

newsmax is very sluggish today--but as I remember--many American citizens are dual citizens and they are allowed to vote in the Mexican elections. The meeting was to be the start of the next election cycle.

So--I guess we will be moving our next debate for America to Guadalupe????

Sorry, for the sarcasm, I am just an older  guy watching the destruction of the beautiful country that he and his family fought for.

To 02Cav91--I assume your criticism of "stacking the deck" is meant for me. If that's the case, let's have at it!

First, I agree with you that whatever the true number of illegals in the U.S. at a given time is less important than the actions or inactions of ICE to catch and deport them! That's what I call "duh! reasoning".

You seem to be questioning both the 12 million AND the 38 million figure, but you seem to have no idea as to "where" these figures came from--unless you're just feining ignorance when you know very well how those figures came about. That implies ignorance which, from a knowitall person like yourself isn't characteristic, so I'll assume you're using this "questioning of figures" as a ploy to try to trip up those of us who use the numbers in order to make you feel like you've "won" the argument! Sorry, chum, it doesn't work with me. I've seen this tactic used on other threads and blogs from other wise guys.

I WILL tell you this much. The 12 million came from the 8 million that came from the 10 million and the 11 million that were postulated by the left-wing Pew Center over a period of years. The U.S. CENSUS figure have always been lebow the Pew somewhat but no one in his/her right mind believes the CENSUS, as they miss counting millions of illegals who are TRULY hiding in the shadows. Unfortunately, many conservatives in Congress, in think tanks and others outside of D.C. began using the Pew as the Divine Truth when it came to "numbers". Such behavior and thinking was a huge mistake, for what it did was foment "the lie", the Big Lie, that there were only 11 or 12 million illegals in the U.S. HOW do I know it's a lie? I'll tell you. I live in the state most hard hit by illegals--CA. Everyone who knows anything about this issue (numbers) knows that more than half of all illegals (no matter WHAT the actual number) live in CA. There has been some movement of illegals within CA, mostly within So. Ca. between L.A. and the Inland Empire. No one know exactly how many, but that movement hasn't altered CA's total number as they haven't left the state. The weather is great, the pro-illegal sentiment is strong and the laws here are lax in spite of the super high cost of living, so they stay. Another "duh! moment", right? I've lived in both So. Cal., Central Cal. and Northern Cal. for long periods of time. I've worked with illegals, thousands of them. I've driven through their communities. CA is a HUGE state--there are entire towns and cities that are populated with illegal aliens. They are EVERYwhere! There are, in my estimation, 15-19 million illegals in CA...and between 30 and 38 million in the U.S.

You can question "how" I got to these figures and you can believe what you want to believe, but those are the figures I believe to be accurate. People who know more about this issue than I do like MMP founder/leader Jim Gilchrist believe the figure to be in the 33 million-plus area. Other experts in this area like D.A. King believe it to be at least 30 million. Lou Dobbs, last I heard, was still stuck at 20 million--the 2005 Bear Stearns Report figure from 2004 data. It's 2007 and there are millions more illegals here, so Dobbs needs to get his act together. As I've said, believe what you will. But it is not "stacking the deck" to state that there are 30-38 million illegals in the U.S.! It is based on what I've lived, read and seen.

The CAPS figures of 30-38 million (I have this from one of the panelists) is  based in part on the number 10,000 illegal alien Border crossings per day per year on average (Winter crossings are down due to weather, Spring and Summer crossings are up for the same reason). The Southern Border is almost 2,000 miles long. The 10,000 figure was in part based on BP estimates, and they're on the front line. Bear Stearns Report in January 2005 stated that it was between 18-20 million. Later that year, Time did a front-page story on the issue and stated that 3 million illegals break into the U.S. every year--that's approximately 10,000 a day! So the 10,000 per day figure is, even by some on the left, a figure that is accepted, even though it doesn't mesh with the 12 million total used by those who want to understate the issue.

I fully agree with you on your "4 -pronged approach". I've stated that approach myself for years. There are other things that can be done, but the bottom line is INTERIOR ENFORCEMENT. They're already here. The fence will take years to build and may never be finished. Enforcing immigration law in the interior  will cause millions of illegals to go home, even as millions break in. That's the best we can do, given our impotent Federal government that's pushing for amnesty as it starts getting tough on lawbreakers. It's neurotic at best, but that's the hand we're dealt with.

02Cav91--

If you want to know "where" i got my 38 million figure, here's the link to James H. Walsh's report that just came out a few days ago and was reported in the national media. The panelists estimated it was between 20 million (Fred Elbel's figure) and 38 million (James Walsh):

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc_17_4/tsc_17_4_walsh.shtml

Before dismissing this study, you might check out Mr. Walsh's background at the bottom of the article.

levotb, I wasn't shooting at a point target (any individual), but at an AREA target - the smoke screen that is the "numbers game".

However, you proved my point quite nicely.

Look at all the time and money those "researchers" spent.

Look at all the time and money they spent publishing their "results".

Look at all the time YOU spent worrying about WHAT the number is....rather than concentrating on REDUCING WHATEVER that number might be.

9/11 proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that a mere "19" is too many.

Also, reread your post and the "studies" you cited.

Notice the excessive use of words like "estimated", "postulated", "accepted"...and the utter LACK of words like "proven", "confirmed", and "exact".

Smoke screen: (used as a noun) - a tactical tool in military operations, used to OBSCURE, CONFUSE AND OBSTRUCT THE ENEMY'S VIEW OF THE REAL TARGET.

"Know it all"?  Hardly...but I've been places and done things where it is a survival imperative to recognize the tricks and tactics the enemy uses to make it easier for him to kill my ass.

By getting people busy arguing about what the "most accurate" number is - which is ridiculous on the face of it, since it CHANGES EVERY DAY WE REMAIN WITH UNSECURED BORDERS - it keeps them from asking the PERTINENT question:  HOW DO WE FIX IT?

THAT is the only question that matters!

Quibbling over numbers is like arguing what color to paint the ball room on the Titanic.

THAT - simple and direct - was my objective.

So, now that we've established the fact that you're a scrapper - AND able to do research - then perhaps it's time to turn our guns on the REAL enemy...say, how about the open borders groups that infect this country and the punk CongressCritters they have by the balls - or lack thereof?

Agreed?