Plato's Cave Simile......calling all Philosophers!

Hello All! I am taking my first Philosophy class this semester....

I have to write a paper on Plato's Cave and will need your input if you are well versed with regard to Socrates and Plato's discussions on the "perfect" society", the simile of the sun and of course the divided line theory- and tie it all in with Plato's cave.

My first thought was how advanced Socrates and Plato were with their thought processes. They did not allow themselves to be entrenched in dogma of the physical world based on "beliefs" and "illusions". The bulk of society if compared to today.....live in the Cave....they are afraid to face the truth which is often times painful. Metaphysical thinking is associated with the Theory of Forms.....some of the brightest and the best engaged in Metaphysical thinking to expand their knowledge....Descartes and his explanation of Mathematics (2500 years BEFORE Socrates).....Galileo who dispelled the theory that EVERYTHING revolves around the earth.....Galileo knew it was the sun.....and as with others before and after him......was mocked for his theory and some like Socrates- actually put to death.

Is it possible to establish a "perfect" society if so many of your citizens are "living in the cave".....afraid to see the truth, not willing to pursue higher learning to help society as a whole, and too afraid to face truths which may cause them pain?

Any input would be deeply appreciated.......I am a science student and while I DO practice thinking on a metaphysical level......often times the words escape me when writing on a subject that is NEW to me.

 

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      There are quite a few cases of people living in "caves" today only not the typical ones in some remote mountain but your high rise apartments and hotels with thousands of rooms.

       These people will have quite a different outlook if they never get out enough to see what is going on outside their usual environment.

       Plato has been quite an influence on western thinking but, as Mr. Persig asks in his book"Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance", what if Plato wasn't altogether right?

       In our times, there are quite a few who have, for various reasons, stopped doing most of their own thinking.

       The answers to some questions lie in the metaphysical and,being afraid of that, people prefer their mysteries.

Ahhhh......Dinosaur- you get it!  The answers DO lie in the Metaphysical...so if you were me and wanted to make an analogy with regard to plato's cave simile and "apply" it to modern society and the way our country has morally declined since the 60's Revolution- the "hippies" tried to gain their Metaphysical thinking by taking LSD....am I right on this assumption?- because my Professor is older than I am and a liberal. 

 Also....Socrates had a "pyramid' theory......Guardians (leaders) on top- would represent our present day senate/congress/reps and President.....supposedly we choose the "best and brightest" in our perfect little society- but all of us here at FS know that statement is not always true...LOL...look at our present state of affairs!

Next tier down "Auxillaries" (like our military and police and possibly ENTIRE legal system) .....

Lastly the bottom tier is "Business Class" (represented by all other people in society)

Sooooooo..........in my thinking are the Business class members in the "cave"? and is that what a "smart" leader knows? Keep the masses supplied with "Bread and Circuses" and they will not question "what" is going on in the top 2 tiers......

Bread and circuses is described as "food and entertainment" ....and the cave holds them in.....they believe their shadows and illusions and prefer it that way....but if they don't come out of the cave- they can not positively "contribute" to better their "society" or "community".......

Am I on the right track?

 

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   Looks like--    

   If someone ventures out of the cave (starts to think) and finds it is raining and  returns to tell everyone that water falls from the sky, they will tell him that he is a nutcase as it is obviously only runs along in a little stream in the back of the cave.

    There is so much bread and circus that it has almost kept everyone in the cave and, the few of us that are not afraid to venture out, (think) are regarded with some suspicion.

    Knowledge is,and, if you are seeking it, it will come. 

Thanks Dinosaur.....you are very wise! I am seeking......and have been seeking knowledge for over 40 years...I hope it comes. And I don't need LSD to expand my mind!  I guess "thinking out of the box" and "critical" thinking could also come close to the Metaphysical level of thinking.  If it turns out okay.....I will post my finished essay due (of all days for this to be due!) September 11th.

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I took a moral philosphy course one semester. I would have liked to take eastern philosophy instead though. I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence and I though it was a good book if you don't get lost.

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My Professor has a diverse list of readings for this course....I will have Eastern philosophy later in the semester- Tao, I think. I used to be into "Zen and Windsurfing"......no longer have my board or a good place to use one. Still have my speed sail and pony boom for nostalgic reasons.

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                    That's some pretty deep stuff there BiotechBabe. Especially for little ol' Alabama boys like me.

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Don't feel bad Alabama--I don't even know what the hell she's talking about half the time---but I know she's smart--and she's a Buckeye!!!!!!

                   Smart as a whip. Proud to have befriended her.

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  There were some brilliant thinkers in ancient China and it is too bad that the  present regime couldn't  have some nationalistic pride in them and let the people follow their own direction.

   There are large volumnes of information from India that have information that  is hard to absorb from a western viewpoint.

    In the end, I believe none of them have the total picture, only larger or smaller fragments and  by gathering more and more pieces, the picture takes shape.      Fun quest--enjoy. 

Ohio said: Don't feel bad Alabama--I don't even know what the hell she's talking about half the time---but I know she's smart--and she's a Buckeye!!!!!!

Ohio and Jason, thanks for the compliments- but I study A LOT! 

Ohio...and my fellow buckeye...LOL- God love ya....it's not that I am smart- it's just this voracious appetite to read about EVERYTHING. Years ago I vowed I would make it my mission to learn AT LEAST one new thing a day- on whatever topic interested me. I DID NOT want to take this Philosophy course.....I know we will also be delving into  Nietsczhe (did I spell that right?) and I have already had an introduction to existentialism and I don't care for it one bit- it leaves out God and morals.

Socrates had one very excellent line that I want to leave you with: Can YOU define Justice?

Socrates said: How can you define justice if society is not "just"?

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(CM) BiotechBabe said:

Hello All! I am taking my first Philosophy class this semester....

I have to write a paper on Plato's Cave and will need your input if you are well versed with regard to Socrates and Plato's discussions on the "perfect" society", the simile of the sun and of course the divided line theory- and tie it all in with Plato's cave.

My first thought was how advanced Socrates and Plato were with their thought processes. They did not allow themselves to be entrenched in dogma of the physical world based on "beliefs" and "illusions". The bulk of society if compared to today.....live in the Cave....they are afraid to face the truth which is often times painful. Metaphysical thinking is associated with the Theory of Forms.....some of the brightest and the best engaged in Metaphysical thinking to expand their knowledge....Descartes and his explanation of Mathematics (2500 years BEFORE Socrates).....Galileo who dispelled the theory that EVERYTHING revolves around the earth.....Galileo knew it was the sun.....and as with others before and after him......was mocked for his theory and some like Socrates- actually put to death.

Is it possible to establish a "perfect" society if so many of your citizens are "living in the cave".....afraid to see the truth, not willing to pursue higher learning to help society as a whole, and too afraid to face truths which may cause them pain?

Any input would be deeply appreciated.......I am a science student and while I DO practice thinking on a metaphysical level......often times the words escape me when writing on a subject that is NEW to me.

 

 

Read Novalis' Heinrich von Ofterdingen. You can find it in a good university library in translation. I think that you will find yourself in Plato's Cave in the central scene in this unfinished novel. But brush up on your Kant and Fichte first. This is Romanticism at its best in my opinion. Google Novalis if you are curious.

if the world we like in is just a shadow as discribed in plato's cave then the worlld of form is perfect in every way... but if it is perfect love exists then so must hate and if that exists then the world will not be perfect but flawed. if there is a perfect form for human kind then we will be the same and have no identity or real perception of self.

Isn't that a part of a person's life journey? To overcome the negativity and evil in the world.......from all things- God's gift to man-free will.

The journey to being a good person is to "walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and fear no evil"......

There will never be a "perfect" society....you are correct exposer- but why not work to make our communities and states better places to live by spreading "good"?! Little pieces of progress.... a little here, a little there- getting to know your neighbors, helping senior citizens in your community. Little rays of hope......giving back and giving thanks for being healthy, or fortunate in your own career, or blessed with wonderful children. Too many negative people in America, always bashing their own country...and for some like me- that HURTS! It cuts me to the quick.....why not remember all that we have done and still do that is "good" as a country?

While most in America live in the "cave"...unaware of what goes on in Washington, unaware of idiotic bills that are passed without question, and waiting for that "nanny state" check to come in the mail- many of us are "out of the cave" and searching for answers.  

We need to fervently work towards ousting those characters in Washington who no longer work for the very people that elected them to office. We need to fill those seats with the "Best and Brightest among us to lead". Maybe I'm just a dreamer, maybe I'm too much of a Pollyanna..... I will never relinquish "hope and faith".

Welcome to FS Exposer....that's an ominous name!

 

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Remember Leibniz said that this is the best of all possible worlds. This means that this world is the best one possible for God to have created. Leibniz is optomistic in his outlook. He discovered calculus independently of Newton and his notation is the one still used. He was one of the three great 17th century rationalists. Descartes and Spinoza are the other two. His philosopy not only recalls the Scholastic tradition (often trivialized by the question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin) but also anticipated modern logic and analysis.  He discovered the binary system as well which is the system underlying computers.

Plato's cave is significant, but with Leibniz, we can really keeep our eye on the prize.

I'll have to check that out John when I find a good time to actually sit and read for leisure purposes! Thanks for the tip. I originally started this in my fall Semester....have read several different philosophers by now- but not ones I am necessarily that interested in beside Descartes and Lao Tzu's "Tao Teh Ching". Fanon is okay........enjoyed  Lysistrata by Aristophanes.

 

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BTB said: I DID NOT want to take this Philosophy course.....I know we will also be delving into  Nietsczhe (did I spell that right?) and I have already had an introduction to existentialism and I don't care for it one bit- it leaves out God and morals.

Years ago I took two philosophy courses.  The first was about rules of logic or how to prove or disprove something logically or rules of reasoning.  Easiest course I ever had.  The second was about various philosophies and/or philosophers, probably similar to what BTB is studying now. 

BTB, you know you don't have to BELIEVE or agree with that stuff (at least I didn't), just understand what they are saying and why.  For example, while Christianity, of the various philosophies we studied. was the one most of us "liked" best , it was the least provable by rules of logic, so said our professor. In other words, he wasn't trying to change our personal phylosophy, just get us to look at various viewpoints logically.