National Debt Clock at 8.8 trillion : should we add 2.4 Trillion more ?

I have heard about this national debt clock that gives up to the minute national debt information.   I always hear liberal talking heads and even Bush republicans say we should be more generous with welfare services, foreign aid, etc... because we are the richest country in the world.    

   I was wondering because I do not know, Is there any country on the planet with a higher debt than the U.S. Debt at 8,809,722,266,572.77  ? 

  The Heritage foundation has stated in the last few weeks that legalizing 12-20 million border jumpers could cost another 2.4 trillion.

   What will have to be cut out of the budget to keep it at the congressional debt limit of 8.9 trillion ?    Will we just have to pay more taxes ?  Will the retired folks be assulted in the press again for receiving their social security they were promised when they paid in for all those years ?  Will our bustling economy make up the difference ?  

   So many questions but I really would like to know where we rank in total National Debt compared to other Nations of the world.   

National Debt Clock

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Do your figures take into account the trade deficit also ? From what I've seen the USA spends an inordinate amount of money on everything but the USA . It is almost as though we have to put our money where our politicians mouths are . A sort of black mail ? Maybe it's a world fine for our politicians adding to global warming by continuing to spew hot air every day ? Big business in the past used the tactic of hostile takeover in order to raid the retirement funds accumulated for the employees and our government is doing the same to social security . Just where does it end , or does it ever ?

TICK TOCK TICK TOCK TICK TOCK

bob graham las vegas said:

Do your figures take into account the trade deficit also ? From what I've seen the USA spends an inordinate amount of money on everything but the USA . It is almost as though we have to put our money where our politicians mouths are . A sort of black mail ? Maybe it's a world fine for our politicians adding to global warming by continuing to spew hot air every day ? Big business in the past used the tactic of hostile takeover in order to raid the retirement funds accumulated for the employees and our government is doing the same to social security . Just where does it end , or does it ever ?

TICK TOCK TICK TOCK TICK TOCK

     Bob,

    I was sincere when I said I do not know.   The Budget office cooks the books so much , I do not know the real number or what goes into it these days.  I know they changed years ago from using GNP numbers, which was getting to be a putrid number to report as our manufacturing base moved offshore or south that the washington wisenhiemers changed to GDP so they could add middle man sales and "services" to the number to mask the real damage.    My understanding is that harvesting raw materials, using them to make a marketable product, and selling it at a profit while employing taxpaying workers is the only real way to add wealth to any nation's economy.  

 What is the real number ?, I would love to find out.

Domenico said: I can gaurantee that we can completely eliminate the national debt within 10 years if internet pornography was heavily taxed.

Tommygarage said:

   What will have to be cut out of the budget to keep it at the congressional debt limit of 8.9 trillion ?    Will we just have to pay more taxes ?  Will the retired folks be assulted in the press again for receiving their social security they were promised when they paid in for all those years ?  Will our bustling economy make up the difference ?  

How are also supposed to pay off this debt when only approximately $250 Billion Federal Reserve notes are circulating in the U.S.?  

It's a boondoggle Tommy.  Much of this debt is also owed to the Federal Reserve.  Just look at the chart here: http://www.federalbudget.com/

Not ONLY do we have a $9 TRILLION dollar national debt, but nearly 25% of our federal budget goes to interest owed on the debt!!!  

We borrow $3 Billion dollars a day, much of this is used for police actions in other nations.  

Again, most of this is all because our federal government had deviated from the Constitution, if not outright usurped it.

Tommygarage said:

bob graham las vegas said:

Do your figures take into account the trade deficit also ? From what I've seen the USA spends an inordinate amount of money on everything but the USA . It is almost as though we have to put our money where our politicians mouths are . A sort of black mail ? Maybe it's a world fine for our politicians adding to global warming by continuing to spew hot air every day ? Big business in the past used the tactic of hostile takeover in order to raid the retirement funds accumulated for the employees and our government is doing the same to social security . Just where does it end , or does it ever ?

TICK TOCK TICK TOCK TICK TOCK

 

     Bob,

    I was sincere when I said I do not know.   The Budget office cooks the books so much , I do not know the real number or what goes into it these days.  I know they changed years ago from using GNP numbers, which was getting to be a putrid number to report as our manufacturing base moved offshore or south that the washington wisenhiemers changed to GDP so they could add middle man sales and "services" to the number to mask the real damage.    My understanding is that harvesting raw materials, using them to make a marketable product, and selling it at a profit while employing taxpaying workers is the only real way to add wealth to any nation's economy.  

 What is the real number ?, I would love to find out.

Bearclaw said: When a debt is "taken or created", money is printed out of thin air and introduced into the economy.  If debt decreases we have a monetary contraction (less money in the economy) resulting in a bust  cycle.  Our monetary system does not have to exist like this, however some very wealthy people benefit from printing money out of thin air and charging the taxpayers interest on this money (also known as the national debt.) 

Bearclaw,

This is only the tip of the iceburg.  There are other ways that we attempt to pay off debt too, which simply results in more inflation and the devalueing of our savings.

The Federal Reserve will purchase assets from the federal government, state government, etc. and think about what they do.  This banking cartel will write a check (think about that), and then purchase these assets.

How does the Federal Reserve write a check?  Well it's simple, they write a check on themselves and deposit it into a member bank (Chase for example let's say).  So the Fed receives hard assets, and the member bank receives a deposit of $1,000,000 into their account which they are happy about since it certainly helps their bottom-line and their investors.  Now this money was simply created out of thin air.  The money supply was just increased by $1,000,000 without printing one single dollar bill.  The effect of the money supply increase does not happen instantly.  The dollar isn't inflated instantly.  This is a tricklel down effect once the invesors of Chase receive their dividends and utilize this money within the economy.  Then prices will start to increase.  

As you said bearclaw, we cannot make a dent into this debt, let alone eliminate it, without a complete overhaul of our monetary policy.

The solution rests with H.R.2755, and then with sound money.  

RonPaul08 said:

Bearclaw said: When a debt is "taken or created", money is printed out of thin air and introduced into the economy.  If debt decreases we have a monetary contraction (less money in the economy) resulting in a bust  cycle.  Our monetary system does not have to exist like this, however some very wealthy people benefit from printing money out of thin air and charging the taxpayers interest on this money (also known as the national debt.) 

 

Bearclaw,

This is only the tip of the iceburg.  There are other ways that we attempt to pay off debt too, which simply results in more inflation and the devalueing of our savings.

The Federal Reserve will purchase assets from the federal government, state government, etc. and think about what they do.  This banking cartel will write a check (think about that), and then purchase these assets.

How does the Federal Reserve write a check?  Well it's simple, they write a check on themselves and deposit it into a member bank (Chase for example let's say).  So the Fed receives hard assets, and the member bank receives a deposit of $1,000,000 into their account which they are happy about since it certainly helps their bottom-line and their investors.  Now this money was simply created out of thin air.  The money supply was just increased by $1,000,000 without printing one single dollar bill.  The effect of the money supply increase does not happen instantly.  The dollar isn't inflated instantly.  This is a tricklel down effect once the invesors of Chase receive their dividends and utilize this money within the economy.  Then prices will start to increase.  

As you said bearclaw, we cannot make a dent into this debt, let alone eliminate it, without a complete overhaul of our monetary policy.

The solution rests with H.R.2755, and then with sound money.  

Hey Ron,

If we do the check writing deposit scam , why do they charge us with check kiting and give jail time ? Also , if the richest few in our nation are feeling so down in the dumps about the poor people abroad , why don't they just whip out the good old personal check book and give 'til it hurts like they expect all of the good citizens of the USA? Just wondering

Bob,

You know that's a good question.  I wish I could also open up one of those storage centers that people use to put their "junk" (or whatever) in, but instead of leaving it there, I would like to be able to loan this property out.  I mean c'mon Bob, all that junk that's stored in there not EVERYBODY is going to claim it all at once.  What's the harm if I can gain some profit by giving it to somebody else in the meantime?  I mean if I have only 15% of the people's property in the storage centers and any one point in time that would make a killing for us right?  If by chance the greedy debtor wants 100% of their property all at once I can just tell them it's gone, and it was simply a business risk that they contracted to when they stored their property there.  

Plus, why can't I simply get me one of those presses and start printing out RP08's and force everybody to accept them as having worth???  That's not fair that the Fed gets to have all that fun with the printing press!! 

I thought this may well be something to think about since today is Sunday and our national debt doesn't take the Sabbath off.  In fact, oddly enough, the Treasury's printers are also rather lax about keeping the Sabbath holy and resting from that burdensome work of printing funny money with that  motto on it, "In God We Trust" (certainly, no doubt that we do).

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it's a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one. -- Benjamin Franklin

Should religious organizations be taxed? The question has been debated since the founding of this nation.

James Madison was in support of taxing church property, as was James Garfield. In 1875, President Ulysses S. Grant's message to Congress included a 900-foot petition containing 35,000 signatures stating, "We demand that churches and other ecclesiastical property shall be no longer exempt from taxation."

"I would," said Grant to Congress, "also call your attention to the importance of correcting an evil that, if permitted to continue, will probably lead to great trouble in our land....it is the accumulation of vast amounts of untaxed church property....In 1850, the church properties in the U.S. which paid no taxes, municipal or state, amounted to about $83 million. In 1860, the amount had doubled; in 1875, it is about $1 billion. By 1900, without check, it is safe to say this property will reach a sum exceeding $3 billion....so vast a sum, receiving all the protection and benefits of government without bearing its portion of the burdens and expenses of the same, will not be looked upon acquiescently by those who have to pay the taxes....I would suggest the taxation of all property equally, whether church or corporation."

Unfortunately, Grant's warning went unheeded by Congress. By 1971, the amount of real and personal property owned by U.S. churches had ballooned to approximately $110 billion.

In New York City alone, the amount was $750 million in 1969, $1 billion in 1982, and $3 billion in 1989.

In Wisconsin, hotels, pay parking lots, farms, and communion wafer bakeries are among the church holdings that are tax exempt. Overall, about $4.2 billion in tax-exempt religious property now exists in that state.

In 1993, there were 3,000 parcels in Clearwater, Florida worth about $1.2 billion are off the tax rolls because they are owned by religious organizations.

The case for taxing religious property today is stronger than ever. The financial power of religious organizations has grown astronomically, despite rather modest growth in church membership (church attendance has hovered around 40 to 45 percent of the total U.S. population for the past several decades). In addition to the growth in the value of religious property, religious income has grown to the point where a 1986 estimate showed religious income in that year of approximately $100 billion, or about five times the income of the five largest corporations in the U.S. (the figure can only be a rough approximation due to the immense difficulty associated with determining unreported religious income).

In 1968, the assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury stated that no reliable estimates are available to determine the extent of religious investments and business operations. He noted that most religious organizations were no longer dependent on charitable contributions and membership fees. With tax exemptions, they had developed funds that multiply through investment, and any investment they make usually bears no relation to the community's evaluation of the churches' supposed role in the community. The economic growth of religious organizations today, according to the secretary, "is limited only by the financial acumen and commercial skills of its managers."

Religion, in other words, had become big business.

In light of such colossal financial strength, the head of the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S. has said that "with reasonably prudent management the churches ought to be able to control the whole economy of the nation within the predictable future."  

Hey I don't think ANY of us should be paying a tax.  The federal government is supposed to be a very limited government for the states.  The states should pay the tax through indirect methods of taxation as opposed to property/income taxation. 

Hey ideally we could live an anarcho-capitalist society where the market provides all services but that'll never happen so the simple solution in the short term is to pass the FairTax Act.  www.FairTax.org

Esquire- said:

I thought this may well be something to think about since today is Sunday and our national debt doesn't take the Sabbath off.  In fact, oddly enough, the Treasury's printers are also rather lax about keeping the Sabbath holy and resting from that burdensome work of printing funny money with that  motto on it, "In God We Trust" (certainly, no doubt that we do).

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it's a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one. -- Benjamin Franklin

Should religious organizations be taxed? The question has been debated since the founding of this nation.

James Madison was in support of taxing church property, as was James Garfield. In 1875, President Ulysses S. Grant's message to Congress included a 900-foot petition containing 35,000 signatures stating, "We demand that churches and other ecclesiastical property shall be no longer exempt from taxation."

"I would," said Grant to Congress, "also call your attention to the importance of correcting an evil that, if permitted to continue, will probably lead to great trouble in our land....it is the accumulation of vast amounts of untaxed church property....In 1850, the church properties in the U.S. which paid no taxes, municipal or state, amounted to about $83 million. In 1860, the amount had doubled; in 1875, it is about $1 billion. By 1900, without check, it is safe to say this property will reach a sum exceeding $3 billion....so vast a sum, receiving all the protection and benefits of government without bearing its portion of the burdens and expenses of the same, will not be looked upon acquiescently by those who have to pay the taxes....I would suggest the taxation of all property equally, whether church or corporation."

Unfortunately, Grant's warning went unheeded by Congress. By 1971, the amount of real and personal property owned by U.S. churches had ballooned to approximately $110 billion.

In New York City alone, the amount was $750 million in 1969, $1 billion in 1982, and $3 billion in 1989.

In Wisconsin, hotels, pay parking lots, farms, and communion wafer bakeries are among the church holdings that are tax exempt. Overall, about $4.2 billion in tax-exempt religious property now exists in that state.

In 1993, there were 3,000 parcels in Clearwater, Florida worth about $1.2 billion are off the tax rolls because they are owned by religious organizations.

The case for taxing religious property today is stronger than ever. The financial power of religious organizations has grown astronomically, despite rather modest growth in church membership (church attendance has hovered around 40 to 45 percent of the total U.S. population for the past several decades). In addition to the growth in the value of religious property, religious income has grown to the point where a 1986 estimate showed religious income in that year of approximately $100 billion, or about five times the income of the five largest corporations in the U.S. (the figure can only be a rough approximation due to the immense difficulty associated with determining unreported religious income).

In 1968, the assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury stated that no reliable estimates are available to determine the extent of religious investments and business operations. He noted that most religious organizations were no longer dependent on charitable contributions and membership fees. With tax exemptions, they had developed funds that multiply through investment, and any investment they make usually bears no relation to the community's evaluation of the churches' supposed role in the community. The economic growth of religious organizations today, according to the secretary, "is limited only by the financial acumen and commercial skills of its managers."

Religion, in other words, had become big business.

In light of such colossal financial strength, the head of the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S. has said that "with reasonably prudent management the churches ought to be able to control the whole economy of the nation within the predictable future."  

RonPaul08 said:

Bob,

You know that's a good question.  I wish I could also open up one of those storage centers that people use to put their "junk" (or whatever) in, but instead of leaving it there, I would like to be able to loan this property out.  I mean c'mon Bob, all that junk that's stored in there not EVERYBODY is going to claim it all at once.  What's the harm if I can gain some profit by giving it to somebody else in the meantime?  I mean if I have only 15% of the people's property in the storage centers and any one point in time that would make a killing for us right?  If by chance the greedy debtor wants 100% of their property all at once I can just tell them it's gone, and it was simply a business risk that they contracted to when they stored their property there.  

Plus, why can't I simply get me one of those presses and start printing out RP08's and force everybody to accept them as having worth???  That's not fair that the Fed gets to have all that fun with the printing press!! 

bob graham las vegas said:  When do we start ? I'm also looking into land grabbing as a way to support the cause .

Pretty soon Bob.  My application into the CFR (CFR is big, but they still cater to the Fed, I mean even www.googlefights.com says so ;)) is pending.  Once I'm approved than let the land grabs begin!

RonPaul08 said:

bob graham las vegas said:  When do we start ? I'm also looking into land grabbing as a way to support the cause .

 

Pretty soon Bob.  My application into the CFR (CFR is big, but they still cater to the Fed, I mean even www.googlefights.com says so ;)) is pending.  Once I'm approved than let the land grabs begin!